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	<title>Comments on: A Theory on NHL Defenseman Metrics</title>
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		<title>By: Teebz</title>
		<link>http://www.thephoenixpub.com/2009/06/16/a-theory-on-nhl-defenseman-metrics/comment-page-1/#comment-2139</link>
		<dc:creator>Teebz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:28:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thephoenixpub.com/?p=182#comment-2139</guid>
		<description>FD, I posted a formula on my site after thinking about this all weekend. Take a look, and let me know what you think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FD, I posted a formula on my site after thinking about this all weekend. Take a look, and let me know what you think.</p>
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		<title>By: FirstDerivative</title>
		<link>http://www.thephoenixpub.com/2009/06/16/a-theory-on-nhl-defenseman-metrics/comment-page-1/#comment-1273</link>
		<dc:creator>FirstDerivative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:35:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thephoenixpub.com/?p=182#comment-1273</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&#039;#comment-1272&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Jeff P&lt;/a&gt; - Yeah, I checked out Corsi, and if you see I linked up to behindthenet- It&#039;s way better analysis than most stuff out there. I should have specified, my fault, the only shots that count against you as a Dman are those in your zone - anything from the point is NOT your responsibility. I also don&#039;t think Corsi takes into account turnovers, breakaways, and things that a defenseman is a rule responsible for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href='#comment-1272' rel="nofollow">@Jeff P</a> &#8211; Yeah, I checked out Corsi, and if you see I linked up to behindthenet- It&#8217;s way better analysis than most stuff out there. I should have specified, my fault, the only shots that count against you as a Dman are those in your zone &#8211; anything from the point is NOT your responsibility. I also don&#8217;t think Corsi takes into account turnovers, breakaways, and things that a defenseman is a rule responsible for.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff P</title>
		<link>http://www.thephoenixpub.com/2009/06/16/a-theory-on-nhl-defenseman-metrics/comment-page-1/#comment-1272</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 17:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thephoenixpub.com/?p=182#comment-1272</guid>
		<description>Another thought. giving up a shot in hockey is not necessarily a bad thing.  The purpose of a defenseman is not to just not give up shots, but depending on the situation and coach, the point of defense is to make the guy shoot instead of drive deeper and make a move, or make a pass. Giving up a clear long distance shot is not a problem, the goalie is supposed to be able to stop that. 

That aside, your best bet for something like this is the Corsi rating, which is simpler but can be tracked much more easily. It&#039;s the shots towards the net (doesn&#039;t have to be a SoG) minus the shots towards your net while you&#039;re on the ice, so if you shoot once and block a shot you have a +1 rating. 

That puts Redden at a 7.9, for 10th on the Rangers. That compares to Gomez&#039;s 16.2.
You might find this interesting: 
http://www.behindthenet.ca/2008/basic_5_on_5.php?sort=9&amp;mingp=&amp;mintoi=&amp;team=&amp;pos=

Stuff like this already exists, it just takes knowing where it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another thought. giving up a shot in hockey is not necessarily a bad thing.  The purpose of a defenseman is not to just not give up shots, but depending on the situation and coach, the point of defense is to make the guy shoot instead of drive deeper and make a move, or make a pass. Giving up a clear long distance shot is not a problem, the goalie is supposed to be able to stop that. </p>
<p>That aside, your best bet for something like this is the Corsi rating, which is simpler but can be tracked much more easily. It&#8217;s the shots towards the net (doesn&#8217;t have to be a SoG) minus the shots towards your net while you&#8217;re on the ice, so if you shoot once and block a shot you have a +1 rating. </p>
<p>That puts Redden at a 7.9, for 10th on the Rangers. That compares to Gomez&#8217;s 16.2.<br />
You might find this interesting:<br />
<a href="http://www.behindthenet.ca/2008/basic_5_on_5.php?sort=9&amp;mingp=&amp;mintoi=&amp;team=&amp;pos=" rel="nofollow">http://www.behindthenet.ca/2008/basic_5_on_5.php?sort=9&amp;mingp=&amp;mintoi=&amp;team=&amp;pos=</a></p>
<p>Stuff like this already exists, it just takes knowing where it is.</p>
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		<title>By: Melt Your Face Off &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The 2nd Annual NHL Lasties</title>
		<link>http://www.thephoenixpub.com/2009/06/16/a-theory-on-nhl-defenseman-metrics/comment-page-1/#comment-1271</link>
		<dc:creator>Melt Your Face Off &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The 2nd Annual NHL Lasties</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 15:28:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thephoenixpub.com/?p=182#comment-1271</guid>
		<description>[...] First Derivative would like to get all statistical and come up with a certifiable way to let you know who sucks at defense.  Until he does, we&#8217;ll just go with our best hunch.  Brendan Witt sucks at defense. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] First Derivative would like to get all statistical and come up with a certifiable way to let you know who sucks at defense.  Until he does, we&#8217;ll just go with our best hunch.  Brendan Witt sucks at defense. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: FirstDerivative</title>
		<link>http://www.thephoenixpub.com/2009/06/16/a-theory-on-nhl-defenseman-metrics/comment-page-1/#comment-1266</link>
		<dc:creator>FirstDerivative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 22:38:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thephoenixpub.com/?p=182#comment-1266</guid>
		<description>I saw Afino, I don&#039;t have your email can you shoot me one from my link?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I saw Afino, I don&#8217;t have your email can you shoot me one from my link?</p>
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		<title>By: Afino</title>
		<link>http://www.thephoenixpub.com/2009/06/16/a-theory-on-nhl-defenseman-metrics/comment-page-1/#comment-1265</link>
		<dc:creator>Afino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 21:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thephoenixpub.com/?p=182#comment-1265</guid>
		<description>Big day for you, 1stD.

Featured on Puck Daddy&#039;s links and I linked to you on Mirtle yesterday.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Big day for you, 1stD.</p>
<p>Featured on Puck Daddy&#8217;s links and I linked to you on Mirtle yesterday.</p>
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		<title>By: FirstDerivative</title>
		<link>http://www.thephoenixpub.com/2009/06/16/a-theory-on-nhl-defenseman-metrics/comment-page-1/#comment-1264</link>
		<dc:creator>FirstDerivative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 20:13:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thephoenixpub.com/?p=182#comment-1264</guid>
		<description>For a season long stat, perhaps a +/- multiplier depending on how much percent of the time you were on against lines 1-4?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For a season long stat, perhaps a +/- multiplier depending on how much percent of the time you were on against lines 1-4?</p>
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		<title>By: ogie</title>
		<link>http://www.thephoenixpub.com/2009/06/16/a-theory-on-nhl-defenseman-metrics/comment-page-1/#comment-1256</link>
		<dc:creator>ogie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 18:36:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thephoenixpub.com/?p=182#comment-1256</guid>
		<description>I like the idea, but what about taking into account the quality of the team they are defending against. Surely taking the puck away from someone like Ovechkin should be rewarded more than taking away from Colton Orr.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the idea, but what about taking into account the quality of the team they are defending against. Surely taking the puck away from someone like Ovechkin should be rewarded more than taking away from Colton Orr.</p>
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		<title>By: Teebz</title>
		<link>http://www.thephoenixpub.com/2009/06/16/a-theory-on-nhl-defenseman-metrics/comment-page-1/#comment-1252</link>
		<dc:creator>Teebz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:20:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thephoenixpub.com/?p=182#comment-1252</guid>
		<description>There are some defencemen who won&#039;t fit into the Sabremetrics for obvious reasons. How would a Scott Niedermayer, who played rover for most of the playoffs, fit into the scheme? How does a defenceman like Ian White, who takes regular shifts at forward, fit in?

The beauty of the baseball Sabremetric analysis is that there is a distinct separation between offence and defence so there is never a question as to statistical outcome. What one may view as an uncontested shot in hockey simply could be the goaltender screaming at a defenceman to move out of the way so he can see the shot clearly. A contested shot that results in a deflection for a goal-against could hurt a player big-time in the grand scheme of things, particularly if his team is eliminated from the playoffs because of it.

Penalties also have to be taken into account in this system. If you have a guy like Shane O&#039;Brien who racks up stupid penalties all game, but the Canucks bails him out, he shouldn&#039;t be rewarded for making the rest of his team work harder for his stupidity. But, on the other hand, if a guy like Lidstrom takes a holding penalty while tying up a guy with a wide-open net and the Wings kill off the penalty, Lidstrom should be rewarded for his penalty. He saved a goal whereas O&#039;Brien&#039;s penalty did nothing but handicap his team.

The variables in hockey are far different than the variables in baseball. I don&#039;t think it&#039;s anywhere as close to being &quot;black-and-white&quot; as baseball makes it to be. I am curious in hearing more theories, though. Great post! :o)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are some defencemen who won&#8217;t fit into the Sabremetrics for obvious reasons. How would a Scott Niedermayer, who played rover for most of the playoffs, fit into the scheme? How does a defenceman like Ian White, who takes regular shifts at forward, fit in?</p>
<p>The beauty of the baseball Sabremetric analysis is that there is a distinct separation between offence and defence so there is never a question as to statistical outcome. What one may view as an uncontested shot in hockey simply could be the goaltender screaming at a defenceman to move out of the way so he can see the shot clearly. A contested shot that results in a deflection for a goal-against could hurt a player big-time in the grand scheme of things, particularly if his team is eliminated from the playoffs because of it.</p>
<p>Penalties also have to be taken into account in this system. If you have a guy like Shane O&#8217;Brien who racks up stupid penalties all game, but the Canucks bails him out, he shouldn&#8217;t be rewarded for making the rest of his team work harder for his stupidity. But, on the other hand, if a guy like Lidstrom takes a holding penalty while tying up a guy with a wide-open net and the Wings kill off the penalty, Lidstrom should be rewarded for his penalty. He saved a goal whereas O&#8217;Brien&#8217;s penalty did nothing but handicap his team.</p>
<p>The variables in hockey are far different than the variables in baseball. I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s anywhere as close to being &#8220;black-and-white&#8221; as baseball makes it to be. I am curious in hearing more theories, though. Great post! <img src='http://www.thephoenixpub.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_surprised.gif' alt=':o' class='wp-smiley' /> )</p>
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		<title>By: FirstDerivative</title>
		<link>http://www.thephoenixpub.com/2009/06/16/a-theory-on-nhl-defenseman-metrics/comment-page-1/#comment-1243</link>
		<dc:creator>FirstDerivative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 02:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thephoenixpub.com/?p=182#comment-1243</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&#039;#comment-1242&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Hawerchuk&lt;/a&gt; - I did simplify the proportions to keep whole numbers intact, but again this is literally a first draft of a formula. I would like to refine it. I think the question is a little more complex. Essentially, using baseball as the backdrop, every event is calculated into probability, the end result isn&#039;t important with certain metrics - just the statistical mean of that event (specifically, what AVM systems did for the A&#039;s).  If you&#039;d like, shoot me an email and I&#039;d be very interested in discussing this further.
Cheers,
FD</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href='#comment-1242' rel="nofollow">@Hawerchuk</a> &#8211; I did simplify the proportions to keep whole numbers intact, but again this is literally a first draft of a formula. I would like to refine it. I think the question is a little more complex. Essentially, using baseball as the backdrop, every event is calculated into probability, the end result isn&#8217;t important with certain metrics &#8211; just the statistical mean of that event (specifically, what AVM systems did for the A&#8217;s).  If you&#8217;d like, shoot me an email and I&#8217;d be very interested in discussing this further.<br />
Cheers,<br />
FD</p>
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